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Author Scott Roche has created a video promo for his book Archangel. In the second part of his story, I voice one of the characters and provide audio production assistance. Check it out.
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That’s so wrong,
They’re using the pentacle to represent evil again. I wear one of those around everywhere (I am a cultural Wiccan). I even had to clear it up with an evangelical christian once. Pointed out that it was a slur made by the Catholic church against competing religions. Thankfully the fact that it’s no where mentioned in the bible and that evangelicals hate Catholics helped.
Still it’s bleeding wrong.
Meh,
Thor’Ungal.
P.S. sorry I’ve been working hard to set up my own blog for the church I’m with. I’m still brewing a response for that cosmological argument. I’m sure one of that guy’s premises is wrong but I’m not a philosopher so wording it right is difficult.
if you’re interested in having a look see:
http://unitariansa.wordpress.com/
It’s still under construction till Feb 15th when I can finally acquire some media for it. It’s all explained on the blog.
Hello Thor’Ungal,
I can certainly understand your feeling. I have a close relative who’s a pagan and wears a pentacle regularly. Having absolutely no attachment to the symbol, I didn’t even think twice about it. Your reminder that the Church vilified the symbol to edge out competing religions is one I definitely needed.
Unfortunately, the Catholics were all too successful in their mission. The culture at large wrongly believes that paganism and Satanism are synonymous. Additionally, because of the Church’s actions, actual Satanists have adopted that symbol as their own. That combined with popular understanding of the pentacle means is what determines its portrayal in popular fiction.
The pentacle makes similar ‘evil’ appearances in Archangel itself. The book is written for the populous at large but is definitely written from a Christen point of view, so it’s misuse is not surprising. However, Scott is a very open minded guy. Perhaps we can at least talk him into adding this bit of history into his novel at some point?
If I were a pagan, I would mourn the loss of owning the meaning of the symbol. I would also very likely do exactly what you have done here and elsewhere; I would explain the symbols history. Another option is to adopt other symbols that don’t carry the historical baggage.
By the way, I have no idea what it means to a pagan. Exactly what does the symbol represent?
Yes it’s a pain, still, we use it in the teeth of people who misunderstand it.
What does it mean? It’s origins seem to be Mesopotamian, I had always learned that it represented the four terrestrial elements plus spirit above them. Apparently though the Pythagoreans had a bit to do with that.
Additionally it represents mankind (one head above two hands above two feet). It also represents the wanderers (they only knew of 5 planets back then).
It’s all woo but that’s not the point, it’s a damn shod better symbol for the sacred than a roman device of execution (otherwise known as a christian cross). It has a much richer history too.
ah well, I also love driving my christian friends to distraction by wearing it around them. The pentacle I wear is also surrounded by a snake, It has significance but also satisfactorily adds to their discomfort.
Oh and to plug, Wiccans still can’t get their service men and women to be buried beneath a pentacle in the US. They get buried under a cross instead. The shame of it all.
edit: My mistake they now can (yay).
ah well,
Thor’Ungal
P.S. when I say I’m a cultural Wiccan, I’ve never believed in allot of it (I now believe none of it) but I find their ethical stance to be one I mostly agree with. Deal with consequences not good and evil. Things are never that simple. Wiccans deal with things out of balance, not simply good or evil. I like that.
Although this was a good excuse for a rant I’ll now just note that that pentacle is upside down. That is a sign of evil (as much as there is one in Wicca). It represents the spirit beneath the elements, so it’s not incorrect in this case to equate it with satanism.
Thor’Ungal
Hi Thor! I assure you that I mean no offense to anyone that uses the pentagram as a holy symbol. Like Sid said, in popular culture it is widely associated with Satanism/black magic/etc. If I use something more esoteric then it will lack the punch that I want it to have.
Evil using a symbol or rather misusing a symbol is certainly nothing new. Hitler co-opted the swastika, the cross, and a number of other symbols for his own use. If it’s any consolation you can think of its use in my book along the same lines.
I do address the use of such symbology in an as yet unreleased chapter:
“Some of his ilk used thaumatirgic circles, pentagrams, that sort of thing. For Isaac it was more a way to again bring the energies out of the blood, the elements around him, and the power of his bond with the Master to get the end result he desired. There was no particular reason for him to use the arcane symbology that others found comforting.”
So the way these symbols are used in the dark magic in the book is a way of focusing.
I certainly intend no offense and while I don’t want to propagate a stereotype (you can ask Sid and he’ll tell you that a thought foremost in my brain when creating an atheist character was avoiding such stereotypes) this particular case is strong shorthand and will resonate with my audience.
I’ll be glad to listen to any suggestions you have though I can’t promise I will incorporate them.
“it’s a damn shod better symbol for the sacred than a roman device of execution (otherwise known as a christian cross). It has a much richer history too”
FWIW, I as a Christian do not wear a crucifix. I do have a silver ring with crosses on them and that’s not so much a symbol of holiness, but as a reminder of sacrifice.
As for your last statement I’ll grant you that it has a longer history than the cross. I’m not sure what you mean by richer. In either case any symbols Christians use would only have a 1900 year history max, so you got me there.
How can you tell if it’s upside down rather then just tilted 36 degrees?
Sidfaiwu – doesn’t matter, it “points” down rather than up. I wouldn’t worry too much about the semantics, it’s all woo anyhow.
Scott –
Firstly I apologise about my remarks regarding the cross. I do understand it’s significance regarding the sacrifice of your saviour (even if I don’t believe personally in that plan of salvation). In my defence I fear my background with evangelicals (both my brother and my father plus friends) has left me somewhat jaded. Actually one of the reasons I joined the Unitarians was to heal such wounds by seeing what liberal Christians are like. I am now less hostile than I was. Although Unitarians tend to be closer to pantheists, deists or atheists than Christians.
I occasionally find it distressing to think that if Jesus had been hung then the symbol would have been a noose. However if that were the case the symbolism of sacrifice would be the same.
As to deeper and richer. Deeper is obvious. Richer in that the evolution of the idea is more complex. It has roots in many different cultures (found to symbolise different things in China but still present). Roots in Greek philosophy with the Pythagoreans and representative of many things. The cross on the other hand at least in the Christian sense starts and ends with one thing. The death of Jesus. If you buy into the story of salvation then this has meaning. But if you don’t it just seems brutal, nasty and wasteful.
Unfortunately while I understand and respect the significance many Christians place upon the cross. To non-Christians the device is profoundly disturbing. Only made worse by knowledge of what orthodox Christianity thinks on the subject.
Namely
-That mankind is so retched as to only deserve damnation in the eyes of a god.
-That it took the blood sacrifice of an untainted man god to appease this deity.
-That only those willing to buy into this will avoid Damnation but those not will suffer it.
I am sadly repeating the evangelical line on this. I know first hand many Christians reject this. I’m also not defending the cultures that used the pentacles either. Many of their beliefs were probably as bad. Wicca in its modern guise has only been around since the early 90s (even if the symbols and myths are much much older). In short I think the life of your messiah was profoundly more meaningful than his death. I am also glad that our church for one does not adopt the cross as a symbol.
As to using the pentacle as a demonic symbol. Well you are right, it is part of our culture now for better or for worse. Being upside down will mean most pagans won’t take issue with it anyhow. If you’re looking for something more representative of Biblical Demonism, try an upside down cross. It strikes greater terror than the inverted pentacle ever could. It also has the added bonus of being biblically supported from the reverse crucifixion of the martyrs. Anyhow You’ve dealt with the use of the symbol already. I’ll see about watching some of those episodes, I’ve jumped on a fairly minor point to be honest (mostly as an excuse for a rant).
I don’t personally take much offence to it, it’s just a bugbear of mine
.
Sorry for the rant or any offence I may have given without meaning it,
Thor’Ungal.
No offense taken by any of your statements Thor. I understand why my religion and its main symbol are disturbing to non-believers. Christ’s life (and rebirth) were both far more significant than the method of his execution so I think we agree on that point.
I’m trying no to go too overboard with the sort of image of a satanist as a robed, goat skull carrying, candle burning (you get the picture) stereotype. I want the bad guys in my stories to be scary. Best way to do that, I’ve found, is to make sure that they look pretty much like you and me. Go too far into stereotype land and you get laughable.
I hope you will listen to the podcast and let me know what you think.
Cheers.
Yea that’s the id…hey that’s not what meant at all, you pulled a fast one on me
.
If you believe in the rebirth then it meant something, else again meaningless. Also kind of insulting to think his memory would be so tainted by such mythologizing. Thankfully while I think his life was meaningful I don’t think it’s centrally so (so I am not insulted
).
This is an argument I’ve had with a few (not many) in my congregation. What was significant about Jesus. I’ve come to the conclusion that it came down to dumb luck, a bit of Judaism and a fair degree of charisma. His message predated him by a fair bit and in fact was better expressed by several other philosophers (such as Aristotle, 385 BCE). Heck even in Judaism this was not new, Hillel had said much the same in 50 BCE. His life wasn’t nearly as noble as say Musonius Rufus or even the contemporary Martin Luther King.
What made the man significant was that Christendom converted a roman emperor and so therefore became the dominant religion in the west (and thus rode the success of the west through the Renaissance and the enlightenment). In other words he was remembered by the victors.
“I’m trying no to go too overboard with the sort of image of a satanist as a robed, goat skull carrying, candle burning (you get the picture) stereotype.”
That’s good, because that wouldn’t only be comical, it would be grossly inaccurate. While today’s “satanist” might do all of these things to adhere to the Gothic stereotype I suspect a real satanist would know better.
Keep it real,
Thor’Ungal